Walkerok

Your USB to serial converter is hanging up and when that happens you get the message you do. If you look at the post http://forum.unitronics.com/index.php?/topic/1605-communications-stop-when-a-variable-frequency-drive-in-use/ This is the same problem you are having. The problem was only solved by either going directly to a serial port (not so avaialable any more) or to change the USB to serial converter to a different type/brand. Keith

The process is simple. Open your V530 project in Visilogic. Click on the "Project" tab up top Highlight on the convert to color item in the drop down list move over and click on "V570" from the list that will appear when you have "convert to color" highlighted Then a box will pop up describing to you what limitations are for the conversion (click on OK) The you will be asked if you want to save changes to your original V530 program (do what needs to be done) After you chose to save the original program or not it will begin the conversion. (The conversion will take a couple of minutes) Save the converted file into a new file name and set up your hardware as you need to for a V570 and whatever snap IO or expansions you have. You will need to go through the program screens and rework certain items so that it will look OK on your screen and certain functions won't translate correctly so do testing to make sure what you want to happen actually will after the conversion, but you are done converting. Keith

I have always had periodic disconnects with my older USB converter, but this was always when I was in a field condition on an old laptop. The USB ports were "loose" to say the least (they would wiggle up and down with my fingernail if I pushed on them. So I always figured that that the bad USB ports on the old laptop were the culprit. I got a new laptop a few months ago and the ports are tight and no issues so when I got the disconnect in the field when I was near a VFD I knew something was up, but was unsure as to what. I had to map some information to a VFD so I set up in my office and got all of the issues that this chain has talked about whenever I would ask the VFD to fire the IGBTs and make a motor turn (even if the VFD output was 0.00 Hz). We also program some Rabbit controls here and so we had the two of the Bytrunner products (it is a 232 and 485 to USB converter) and the issues went completely away. I suspect that there may be something physically wrong with my old converter, but if I look back at field history where I have had a heck of a time staying connected I'm actually leaning Joe's way and agree that the different hardware in the Byterunner product is more the answer to the improved results that anything else. Keith

Well I have finally had a chance to test the same USB to serial converter on my new laptop. Lenovo Thinkpad T420 Windows 7 professional The resultsa re the same except that the Windows 7 OS gives an actual arror message that says "Internal error - retrieving device control bloabk for the port". This causes a hard crash of visilogic also in Windows 7 (both computer are running V9.4 Visilogic). With the power supply plugged unplugged I actually got a blue screen of death when I started the VFD. So I'm not going to retry that again, but I ran the scenario with the power cord plugged in 3 times just to see if it was repeatable. Everything works fine with no issues when using the USB-COMI-M. Well now we know

I was using a Dell Optiplex 755 desktop machine. If I get a chance I will try with my laptop and see if the results are the same (in the sprit of discovery ) Keith

Channels 0 and 1 are not able to be 4-20ma inputs. Only channels 2 and 3 are able to be 4-20ma inputs. The V130-33-RA22 installation instructions and specifications documents on the technical documents part of the web site can help you determin what terminals you need to connect to and what settings are available to you on this model PLC. Keith

This is not a question, but a issue that has been soved that might be usefull to someone else to avoid pain. V1210 V9.4 Visilogic Windows Vista 32 bit The initial problem was that my communications on com port 2 (my VFD connection) is always perfect with no issues, but as soon as I turn on a VFD (variable Frequency Drive) the communication between the PLC and a computer instantaneously and permanently stops until such time the VFD is stopped (not powered down) and then the communications can be re-established to the PC. I have tested out just about everything I can to make sure that the answer is correct and not accidental. 1) I have an RS485 with termination using Modbus RTU protocol on com port 2, 19200 com speed 8,2,none connected to a FUJI brand VFD 2) I have com 1 at the default 232 connection to go to the computer using a USB to serial adaptor the has been in constant use for 2 years and never had any trouble (cable from “cables to go” the model is 26886) 3) I have tried shielded com wire both grounded and ungrounded. (no help) 4) I have altered the output carrier frequency of the VFD (Higher the carrier frequency on a VFD the more electrical noise is generated) (no help) 5) I have tried with a motor connected and not connected both with and without grounding. (VFD wiring to a motor can act as an brodcast antenna) (no help) The answer is the USB to serial cable that has and does work when no VFD is running is the root cause of the condition. I have other USB to serial converters and have replaced the original with a metal cased USB-COMi-M that was purchased from www.byterunner.com for $59 and when using the different USB to serial adapter everything works smoothly with no issues under all conditions. I have also run direct to a 9 pin serial port with the standard programming cable and all communications are perfect with or without the VFD running. I think I can correctly and safely say that nothing in either the Unitronics hardware or software is to blame for the troubles I have had. It has taken me most of a day to figure this out so I figured I would pass the information on since it might be useful at some point in the future when someone else has a similar problem. Keith

Anybody have any suggestions?

I attempted to attach a program file and was not able to do so....not sure what that was about. But one note of caution. Since there is no floating ability in the M90/91 you lose the remainder entirely regardles os wheather or not the remainer was a 1 or a 9. For example with one decimal in your specific example you will get 109.0 even though the actual answer should be 109.1. if you go out two decimals instead on one you will get 109.09. If you did this calculation floating then you would get a more accurate number of 109.13. The question is how accurate do you need to be? If you must show the more accurate answer of 109.1 then you are going to have to capture the remainder and do a comparison to decide if you want to round up or down on any calculation made. If you need the even more accurate 109.133 type number then you will most likely have to change PLCs from what you are using to a model that has flaoting point ability (the V120 or V130 are the lowest cost models with float ability). Also the linearization function only works using signed MI type locations so the maximum number you can have is 32767. So be careful trying to multiply by larger and larger numbers to get more decimal locations because you will end up with a number that is larger than 32767 and the linearization block will no longer work. If you must work with number larger than 32767 then there is a special SB82 bit that will allow you to combine 2 integers (called the long integer in the description for SB82). The use of SB82 has several special requirements so look in the forums and examples to get it correct if you decide you must use it. Keith

In this particular case I have a V1210 with an EX-A1 expansion module and two IO-ATC8 modules. I always write in checks for my analog inputs to make a determination if they are failed or not, but I have a problem. If I lose communications with an expansion module any MI that I am bringing the raw sensor data in on just gets frozen where it was when it last had a good connection. At the moment of a complete com loss to either an individual IO module or the main expansion module the PLC will lock up and give an indication of an expansion error, but if the customer just ignors this and cycles the power the PLC will just politely come back on with no error indicated and theoretical analog input values that are frozen (but valid). Is there a flag I can see in either the system bits or system integers? If I lose the entire communication with an IO expansion string I will sii Sb91 turn on as none of the communication is happening at all, but if I loose communication with just one module out of several how can I know this so that I can fault out the entire system. I can not find any SB, SI or anything else that will let me know that I have lost just one module (or if I lose every module after the initial expansion module) after the loss has hapened and the power has been recycled. Keith

Hello, it is very possible to do everything you want to do. A couple of things for you to think about. Are you going to want to use the V130 screen to show your analog input values in engineering units (PSI, Feet/Sec, RPM.....Etc)? If so then you will have to do some programming to show these values on your screen in a scaled value, but not much. If you only care about showing the raw values comming in for the 5 analog devices then you only need to know the MI location so that you can address the requests from the master correctly (and if you want show the raw values on the V130 screen). If you are going to take the time to scale the analog values in the V130 then you may want to have your master pick up the final scaled values instead of the raw signal values. If you want to do this then you will want to linearize (scale) the signals in the ladder code so that you can save the scaled values into MI locations and then you just pick up these values. Keep in mind that the resolution of the 2 analog inputs are not the same as the inputs you will have on the IO card. The inputs on the V130 are 10 bit so your signal will range from 204 - 1023 (for a 4-20ma signal) and the signals on your IO card are 12 bit and your raw data range will be from 819 - 4095. So if a sensor's resolution is critical then put those sensors on the IO and ones that are less critical should be the 2 you put on the V130 (you can put 4 on the IO and only one on the V130 if it helps out). On the PLC ID, you have the ability to make the ID when you set up the slave settings not a fixed bumber but to have the ID be set by the value of an MI. You can set this MI value on screen (if you want...small programming required) or you can just use the PLC information mode to force the value of the appropriate MI to make the ID to whatever you want without any screen programming. Since the ID will only be set one time its your choice but eiter is simple. The information mode way at least you have a password protection to stop inquiring fingers from changing your ID number without needing to make password protected screens (more programming involved). On the analog outputs. You don't say what you want to do with these, but do you really need them if you are going to pick up the sensor values and send them to a master device using a modbus RTU connection. Your master device will have to be set up to communicate with the same communications speed, data bits, stop bits, and parity so you may have to make your communications speed changable as well to work more smoothly with your master device (if you are able to decide with certainty what communications speed you will use then just set it in the com port intialization function block you will have to have in ladder and be done with it). If you do decide you need to have the communications speed changable then you will have no choice but to do some programming to make the speed changable by either using the HMI screen or using the information mode again to set the appropriate memory location to activate one of several com init function blocks that you will have to set up with an equals compare function block on each line so that only one com init can ever be executed at one time. I'm sorry you have to do it this way, but while you can actually change speeds and ID directly in the information mode you will have a function block for the modbus communications that will overide your selection on ID at startup. And on the com speed, as soon as you turn power off to the PLC all of the values will reset back to default values unless you change the values using the indirect MI approach (try to make a fixed com speed value and make the master change to your speed and not the other way arround and your programming becomes much smaller) Any way you look at it this, it is not too hard to do and learning can be fun. Keith

Im sorry but I don't think your question can be answered simply. First of all what zone classification are you actually in? Class ? Div ?. Exploxion proof would indicate that there is a NEMA 7 or 9 or both cast aluminum enclosure involved. This would also indicate that the V130 is completly inside the enclosure and that you can not actually touch the V130 unless the enclosure is open. NEC has requirements about how all of these types of connection need to be done, but it is much more of an art foem and not a science. You get 20 people in a room and your lucky if 2 agree with each other on the exact requirement for all aspects of the installation. Generally if everything is in an actual Xp enclosure you just have to seal the entry and exits correctly to maintain the XP status of everything in the enclosure. The V130 is in no way ok to expose to the explosion causing atmosphere. If you are not really explosion proof and are actually a Class 1 Div 2 environment then if the V130 is exposed the only choice you have is to purge the cabinet with conpressed air using either a Z or Y purging system (depends on the actual zone) which allows items in a C1D2 zone to be treated as if they are installed in an unclassified zone. Sorry but this is much more involved than can actually be answered here completely. Keith

I don't think you will find this to ever work. Since the Unitronics PLC email is a self certification only and does not have any of the third part certificates available to it, I would suspect that you can only send to a server you have control on to allow the acceptance of the email from that specific address (or IP if it is a static IP). Unitronics would have to pay to have the certificates available and integrate them into the equipment before a generic mail site would take them. You could find a public mail site that would take them, but these would all be sites used heavily by spammers and you would create even more negative issues by doing that. Sorry Keith

Hi Joe, Thank you very much that does help. I am thinking..and yes that is dangerous... If the third wire is that important for 100Ohm RTDs accuracy then whould I improve my situation alot if I made a three wire termination very close to the two wire RDT body. With one connection to the negative side and two connections to the positive side. That way I would only have a few inches of difference between the original positive 2 wire and the sensing leg of the third wire. Or is this line of thinking not worth my time? Thanks Keith

I have a system using a V570 and the V200-18-E6B. I have a customer that is strongly resisting 3 wire RTDs. (they have a large inventory of 2 wire 100 Ohm RTD sensors). This is a repeating customer so I can not ignor their desires. I understand that it is Unitronics position that a 3 wire RTD should be used and that a 2 wire can be used but the accuracy will suffer. What is the difinition of suffer ? .5 - 1 degrees C, or wildly wrong values. I have used a huge quntity of 2 wire RTDs over the years, and to be blunt, I had never used a 3 wire RTD until Unitronics demanded it. Overs hundreds of projects I have never had issues, but admittedly I have always used 1000 Ohm platinums with .385 alpha and not 100 Ohm sensors and maybe this makes all of the difference in the world? Unitronics is the first piece of equipment I have ever seen to emphatically insist on 3 wire sensors only. Looking into the inner wiring of RTDs, the only difference between a 2 wire and 3 wire is a fixed resistance on the 3rd wire to mitigate variations due to wire length and ambient temperatures affecting resitivity of the connection wiring. Can I add a fixed risistive ciruit between T+ and where the 3rd wire would connect to mitigate ill affects? Granted I may need to make a permeneant offset on screen and in the program comparisons if adding the exterior fixed resistance but that would be acceptable if that is what is required. If I keep my wiring distances less than 30 feet can I affectively accept the 2 wire version with just a jumper between T+ and where the 3rd wire would land without causing bad things to ensue? In this case we are talking about systems that has a high temperature shutdown requirement in the 250 Deg F range and a variation of actual to read values in the +/- 5 Deg F will not negatively affect the operation of the equipment. Thank you in advance Keith

Hello All, I have been watching this post and waiting to see where the conversation went. I have done industrial hot water heater and boiler controls for a long time, but I am not understanding your process good enough to offer any advice, so am asking if you could just describe what is happening physically (thermodynamically) a little more. Are you injecting condensate water into a DA tank to be reused by the main boiler or is this a completely closed loop system? Is your source of heat a burner or steam injection? How much condensate do you return in percent will be fine? What is the size of your main boiler? How long are your low demand times or all the way off in a standby mode? Since you are using a modulating control system what is the control mechanism and what is its travel time from low to high? It sounds like you have a closed hydronic heating loop for building heat, but I am unsure. Thanks Keith

You did not say what vision series you are using but here is the answerfor V350s and greater. In the HMI menu bar there is a numbers function, a Pasword, and a numeric range object you can place on screen. Just place the password object on screen and fill in the blanks. On PLCs that do not have password object then just put up a number entry object then in the ladder say that when the value entered equals the password you want go to the needed screen. Don't forget to reset the MI of the entered value to 0 as soon as you get to the desired screen or your PLC will appear to be locked up and not let you leave the screen it jumps to (because the value you check to be equal will always be true until you force it to something else). Keith

I believe the answer is that the Information in a data table is not accessable directly. You need to read the information you want out of the data table using the read row or read collumn function blocks. Keith

The flames are blazing high ........ I would post pictures if I could :-)

I knoticed the other day that I am no longer able to attache files to any of my posts here in the forum. Is it possible to reset my limit it says that I have used 499.49K of 500K so I am unable to attache any files. I figured this would reset every day or week. How does this actually work. Thank You Keith

I have asked this question a long time ago and the answer was that you can not put 32 bit values on the LCD. The Jazz only allows math manipulation in the ladder by use of the SB long integer bit, but it does not allow you toput the two integers it stores into intelligently on a screen. Sorry Keith

The maximum number of HMi screens is 1024 I am not sure what the maximum number of objects on a single screen are but I have had at least 100 or so on a screen before. The execution of modbus scans and the saving of data is NOT independent of program scans and will only execute once every program scan. The information that the PLC pics up through modbus is not saved until it correctly executes the modbus read block. The use of the termination resistor is neither good or bad. If it works with terminaltion then that will be fine to use. Generally a termination resistor is required for: 1) long 485 distances 2) The last item on a 485 network However I have found that periodically that termination can sometimes help in situations where ther is a lot of electrical noise (I am not sure why sometimes it does nothing) Keith

Ok Here goes. If you want to protect yourself from the customer having your intelectual property for free forever you need to get the serial number of the PLC from them so you can protect the PLC file from being downloaded to any other PLC than the one you want to update. If you don't care then you do not have to have it. These are instructions with no password on the SD card but using a specific PLC ID number. To put the File on the SD card: 1) Format SD card using SD card utility 2) Open up your revised program in Visilogic 3) click on "project" then "create project files" the tab that opens up first is the "clone" tab 4) If protecting yourself click on "visilogic +O/S" fill in the blanks 5) save the file onto the SD card into the "SYSTEM" folder create your file name (exactly 8 characters needed.....not 7 ....not 9) 6) If everything is good you are done and can send the SD card to your customer On your customers side they will need to do the following: 1) Insert SD card into the slot at the inside topof the controller 2) The label should be facing you with you lookingat the back of the controller 3) Power up the panel 4) Touch your finger anywhere on the touch screentill you see the Info mode/calibration buttons 5) Touch the information mode button 6) Enter the pass code of 1111 7) Touch the SD button 8) Touch the full clone button 9) Press the upload to PLC button 10) Touch the file name you dignated when the file was created file button 11) Touch the select button 12) Window will pop up saying “start cloningprocess” “Do you want to continue” 13) Press yes 14) Everything else is on automatic operation 15) Power down the panel and remove SD card You are done. This process wil not initialize the PLC or reset any of their existing settings (or at least it never has for me is all I can really say) Good luck Keith

To be able to copy anything from a PLC to an SD card the SD card must have a password preinstalled on it by using the SD card utility to do so. However, if at the time of the original download of the program into the V350 was not designated as downloadable then you will not be able to copy this anyway. If you go into visilogic and searck for "clone" it will talk about this and there will be a link to "password" that give you specifics about the password needed. Keith

Do not use the linearization function block for this to work out. You need to do your own linearization the old fashioned way and use floats or MLs instead of MI memory locations (the linearization function only uses MIs) to get better resolution. You did not mention what Snap IO or expansion modules you were using to get the data into the PLC, however most of the snap IO modules only have 10 bit resolution so your 4-20ma signal can only be divided by 820 to get your maximum resolution. If you need a very precise number translated from your 4-20 this is your first and most serious obstacle to getting a value to the .000 decimal place. (using a 14 bit input chanel gives you so much better resolution) I generally do not use floats unless I have to so I use MLs instead. An example of one way to do this is attached. 1st block is getting the range for this particular 4-20ma transducer (high range - low range (on my projects that is always customer enterable and I do not know what it will be) Take the product of that block and multiply by 10,000. Why 10,000 because when working with MI or ML locations decimal points are not allowed and are dropped automatically in math operations so if I temporarily change the size of my math calculations my fractional remainders will be so far down from the actual number I want they will no longer affect me. Then I make my resolution calculation. In this case it is a 10 bit input chanel and have 0-1024(1023 actually) steps available to me on a 0-20ma signal. Since I am using a 4-20ma device I lose the 0-4ma part of the signal so I will only ever see 204 - 1023 unless my 4-20ma signal is bad. Which is why in the next step I am subtracting 203 from my actual incomming 4-20ma signal so that I can represent 203 (the minimum signal I will see) as a zero value on screen.....At this point some of you are asking why 203 and not 204....only because I know my sensors and I know that 203 gives me a better zero value than the 204 value does :-) now we take the corrected input value times the resolution value to get incomming value times 10,000 now after we have done all of this wwe divide by 10,000 to get us back to the real values we want to use last add the lower range value to the product from the previous division so that we show the correct value on screen (if the low range is zero this would not be needed, but many of my sensors are - value to +value pressure transducers so this step is needed...I always include it even if I don't think I need to just in case a customer uses an different sensor I never anticipated. Thats it Keith Keith