Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi@all,

U90 Help file says about #of PID loops: "Jazz controller loop capacity varies according to model."
Unitronics website says about Jazz PLCs: "Auto-tune PID, up to 4 loops"

I thought about using a Jazz JZ20-R10 for my Project and need two PID loops. When I select "PID" in U90Ladder only one PID is configurable.

My question:
Which Jazz PLC does have 2 or more PID loops?
- or -
Where can I obtain informaition about # of PID loops in Jazz PLCs

I searched the website, the forum, specsheets and have not found any information about it.

Thanks forward!

Selli

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious why you want two PID loops, when the -R10 doesn't even have analog.

I tried several hardware configurations, and it looks like you have to go to a -UA24 to get four loops.  I didn't see anything with two loops.

The Vision series does not have this built-in limitation - all PID loops are defined as part of the program.  I would seriously consider moving up.

Joe T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Joe!

Thank you for your reply!

I acquire all my input value(s) and set all output value(s) via MODBUS.

I share your consideration about moving up to Vision, because there is a V130 without I/O but with MODBUS built in, which is not much expensive than a Jazz+Com Module. This way I have all the PIDs that i want + graphics Display + many other benefits.

Thank you anyway!

Selli

 

Edit: You wrote "I tried several hardware configurations...". So did I. But why is the amount of available PIDs not mentioned in any of Unitronics documents, helpfiles and websites?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Denis!

Thanks for your reply!

Unfortunately you are wrong. The "Overview" states:

  • Auto-tune PID, up to 4 loops

And this is a very unclear statement. The truth is, that only few models have four PID loops. Most Jazz PLCs have only one. And NOWHERE on the website or ANY OTHER DOC, a customer can lookup to the actual number of PIDs for every model. Not even in the datasheets for the PLCs. The ONLY Way to get that Information is to do a HW-configuration for every Jazz PLC in VisiLogic and check the number of PIDs there. So did Joe, so did I.

Unitronics should spend more effort in documentation and the help files and less in marketing bs that dont tell the (whole) truth.

Regards,

Selli

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, selli69 said:

Unitronics should spend more effort in documentation and the help files and less in marketing bs that dont tell the (whole) truth.

You might want to be more polite on this forum, Selli.  I am so glad that you have NEVER made a typo in your entire life, or missed some bit of information that no-one told you about, especially when you are dealing with thousands of different things a year to go in constantly evolving information.   Or have you done this and accidentally given out "BS"?  Huh?

Everyone on this forum will attest to the quick response to issues that Unitronics HO does.  Unlike many other brands.

You have unfortunately seemed to find an issue that irks you.  Why didn't you check via HW configuration in the free to download program in the first place, if you couldn't find the info anywhere else?  I actually read "up to 4 loops" as being model specific.  So I would then check things out carefully before doing anything else.  The means were there, just needed some perseverance on your part.

Aus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Aus!

My complain maybe wasnt very polite but it wasnt unjustified too.

We're not talking about a typo, were talking about a product feature, which is very prominently advertised in the middle of a product information page as one of "the"six key product features. And if its advertised in a vague "up to", i expect information about what this "up to" means. In no case it should mean: "Download and install our software and then try and look at all the products we have to get a clue of what our marketing dpt hides behind a wall of fuzziness".

Dont get me wrong, I am not talking about a bad product, i think the plcs are great and worth every penny, but in terms of information and documentation Unitronics has a long way to go imho. The "# of PIDs" issue is just the tip of the iceberg for me. Im fiddling around with UniLogic, VisiLogic and U90 for two weeks (not exclusive!) now and was trapped more than once a day in information holes. I got out of them sometimes by searching the Forum, sometimes by trying, sometimes by a phone call to the german distributor Spectra.

An old rule here in germany says: "You get what you pay for". Maybe the flaws in information and documentation are the price for an otherwise great product at a low cost.

Maybe I expect too much. As an german developer, who often works with products by Siemens, Bosch and other brands of this category i am pretty spoiled in terms of how documentation should be.

If anyone is offended by "bs", I apologize. But on the other hand, we here in germany are believers in clear words.. ;)

Regards,

Selli

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, selli69 said:

i think your plcs ar great and worth every penny

AUSMAN, like most of us participating in this forum, does not work for Unitronics. Though it is hosted by Unitronics, this is a USER forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I regularly work with a top of the line product from Germany and top of the line expensive, too.  Their manuals are often full of plain mistakes and wrong information that causes me untold grief through trying to do something the wrong way....the way they say!  When I advise them of the error it is met with dis-interest, even though it is critical information for the thing to function correctly.  Or they then advise that the addendum squirelled away in subsection R, section 43.147, over-rides what is in the main area of the manual.

"You get what you pay for" doesn't always equate.  I have Unitronics systems in place that have gone for years without issues.

Aus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Aus

I admit, that documentation of german companies isnt always first grade. As you said - nobody is perfect. I had issues you described by myself. But you must admit, that there is a huge difference in documentation, when you compare Unitronics and Siemens. But I dont want to kick off a discussion about german documentary quality vs. the rest of the world. ;)

 

Just now, Ausman said:

"You get what you pay for" doesn't always equate.  I have Unitronics systems in place that have gone for years without issues.

At this point you got me wrong. I know Unitronics PLCs are great. We have some production equipment in our company with Untronics PLCs and we never had problems with em. My Point was, that for the incredible low prices, somewhere has to be a flaw. And I situate the flaws in information and documentation. But better this way than the other way around. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST ARE MINE ONLY AND DO NOT REFLECT THE POSITION OF UNITRONICS, INC. 

A few fond personal memories and my two cents....

1. My favorite quote ever from a German product manager at a sales meeting on infrared sensors when I asked about the technology used to make the sensor - "Why do you want to know?"

2. Years ago as a younger man (late '90's), I put a Siemens drive by choice on a project.   They are definitely good drives.  The end user asked for the user manual and I showed him the CD that shipped with the drive.  His reply - "Do you see a computer out here?  I want a G***** manual I can read!!"  I had to print the 400 page manual to get paid, as the Siemens dealer informed me a printed manual couldn't be ordered and didn't exist.

3.  We used to use a lot of Benedict & Jager (Austrian) contactors. I always found their selection guide confusing, with some information in the middle and other information in the back regarding the same product.  I met one of their people at a trade show in Chicago and asked about it.  His response - "Our catalog is meant for engineers.  You must read the whole thing".

Tauser is a German name BTW, and I'm sure it's where my obsessive compulsive disorder behavior comes from.  I do like to tell everyone I'm Bohemian.

@selli69 - 

8 hours ago, selli69 said:

Unitronics should spend more effort in documentation and the help files

I wholeheartedly wish they had the resources to do this.  Having sold the product for 17 years and a couple of national sales meetings later, I have gotten to meet many of the staff.  I truly admire what they've done in a relatively short amount of time with the product lines.  Unitronics is actually not a very large company, and most of their money goes into R&D, which is why the product stays fairly current.  And don't forget about the FREE software for all the products, along with the utilities.  

 

8 hours ago, selli69 said:

less in marketing bs

I own a Unitronics distributorship.  If you don't sell product and generate positive cash flow, all the wonderful documentation in the world won't keep the wolves at bay.  I personally like all the marketing BS.  The lack of documentation is why I'm so active on the forum.

 

And for what its worth, I hate the Jazz.  It's an excellent relay and timer replacer.  Period.  I tried it on a couple of projects early on and coined a term for the trouble I ran into shortly after numbers and calculations became involved - the "Jazz Wall".

With the introduction of the Samba products, there's really no reason to consider it any more.  Except for maybe the DIN foot.  

Look at all the trouble it's caused just in this thread.  :o

Joe T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Joe! (love this song BTW!) ;)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

First of all: I did'nt want to provoke a clash of culture here in the forum, but when I read your, Aus's and my posts, I might have done this "job" fairly good. To end this, I think we can agree, that the portion of ah's and bs-talkers is constant at every point in the known universe. Einstein suspected that a hundred years ago. And I'm wondering why there is no SI unit therfore. :) 

I wish, I could turn back time and alter my statement "marketing bs" to "bs marketing". That would be my exact statement, even its a little rude though. I know that marketing is absolutely necessary, especially for a product like Unitronic's.

4 hours ago, Joe Tauser said:

The lack of documentation is why I'm so active on the forum.

This is highly honourable, but it's also a little pointless imho when high value information is buried in a forum and especially because it does not tackle the causes. I dont want to discredit or belittle your work, but I think there are much more contemporary ways to bundle and condense all those, in most case important, informations. It's the year 2018. And god gave us such things as wikis and CMSes.

See and be amazed: http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/

Thats a wiki for a computer game i absolutely love. Every Information about this game is bundeled here in thousands(!) of pages. And its completely user driven. No company involved.

I believe it is time that someone (especially the moderators of this forum) should urge unitronics to create a central information center like a wiki.That would be a win-win-win (Unitronics-forum mods-customer) situation and a form of "non-bs-marketing" in a hundred bucks/month price range.

Not mentioned, that such a wiki is capable to auto-generate things like helpfiles, include a bugtracker, etc.

BTW: I would be the first one, who would contribute to such a thing.

Best regards!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys!

I'm glad I saw this!
Selli69, you are entirely right about the PID loops.

I just contacted the website team, and told them that the information needs to be added to the product details, and included in the catalog. I have also requested that it be added to the spec sheets, that will take a bit more time.

It is not going to be in the Help; most model-specific information is not in the Help, because our documentation team is, indeed, very small :(, and, since models are added, and features change, I do not want to have outdated information. I wish we had a team the size of Siemens...but, so it goes.


Selli69, please feel free to contact me personally about documentation issues--we do try, and very often edit, or make additions, according to user feedback. You can pm me, or write to cara.levy@unitronics.com--as you prefer.

oh--and here is the full list:
 

JZ20-R10: 1 Loop

JZ20-R16: 1 Loop

JZ20-R16HS: 1 Loop

JZ20-R31: 1 Loop

JZ20-T18: 1 Loop

JZ20-T20HS: 1 Loop

JZ20-T40: 1 Loop

JZ20-T10: 1 Loop

 

JZ20-UA24: 4 Loops

JZ20-UN20: 4 Loops

---------------------------------------

JZ10-11-R10: 1 Loop

JZ10-11-R16: 1 Loop

JZ10-11-T10: 1 Loop

JZ10-11-T17: 1 Loop

JZ10-11-R31: 1 Loop

JZ10-11-T40: 1 Loop

 

JZ10-11-PT15: 4 Loops

JZ10-11-UA24: 4 Loops

JZ10-11-UN20: 4 Loops

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2018 at 11:02 AM, selli69 said:

to create a central information center like a wiki

We are in the process of automating a support portal that is intended to also provide a knowledgebase. I hope that will help!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Cara Bereck Levy said:

I just contacted the website team, and told them that the information needs to be added to the product details, and included in the catalog. I have also requested that it be added to the spec sheets, that will take a bit more time.

And that, my friends, is why Unitronics has some of the best customer service in the business (besides making great products). Thanks, Cara!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×