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v2comp

new project for nano scale brewery

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I hope this is the place for posting this question, I have been getting together the necessary equipment for my brewery and have never worked with programming plc's, ladder logic or HMI's and am not an electricial engineer or electrician. I have gone over and over the documentation and it is very helpful, (I even got a thermocouple to read out on the v120 unit I have created and downloaded display screens to the unit).

the problem I am having is understanding how system bits and integers and memory bits and integers work withon the system. (before you tell me to go back to school or read another book, I would really appreciate you looking at what I have drawn and advise me as to how to start)

I have attached a drawing that would layout a simple operation (to me anyway) for the plc to control with limited operator involvement. realize that I will only be building the mechanical part of the system and licensed electricians, plumbers and gas workers will do all the necessary work to comply with the local building codes.

what I would like is for one of you guys that completely understand the v120-22-un2, to build a ladder program for me that would run this operation as I will explain and send it to me so that I can study and understand it better. as you will see, I am not looking for someone to design and engineer the entire thing, I just need help getting started with addressing inputs and outputs and the reasons they are done in the order they are.

Step1. power up the machine.

2. display screen

3. initiate run sequence to fill boil kettle

a. switch 120vac on/off solenoid valve to ON position

b. once liquid level is reached (as determined by the 24v liquid level sensor), solenoid valve switches to OFF position.

4.once liquid level has been reached and solenoid valve closes,

a. PLC looks for temperature of 212F on thermocouple, when it finds less than 212F in initiates run burner sequence which checks liquid level sensor to make sure liquid is present,

b. once PLC scans and finds less than 212F and liquid is present, 24v proportional gas valve opens to 50%, pezio flameless igniter fires 10 sparks, flame detector searches for flame, if no flame present after 5 seconds or 10 electric sparks, 24v proportional gas valve closes, pezio igniter STOPS firing, alarm signals operator to check for problems, reset button must be manually pressed to reset run condition. system trys again to run step 4.

c. if flame is detected, pezio igniter stops firing, 24v proportional gas valve opens to 100% and runs at 100% until thermocouple detects 212F

5.once thermocouple reaches 212F setpoint, or 45 minutes has expired.

a. 24v proportional gas valve switches to +/- 10% to maintain a rolling boil for 60 - 90 minutes depending on setting desired and entered into ladder program before running.

b. if 45 minutes expires before reaching 212F, operator must manually reset system to burn for 15 more minutes. if 212F isnt reached in the 1 hour total, 24v proportional gas valve closes and alarm sounds indicating major fault. must be repaired by technician.

6. once timer has reached desired boil length, plc indicates alarm complete on plc screen.

Added: also at anytime if the flame detector loses the flame the system reverts back to step 4 but the timer continues for whatever operation may be happening.

I would really appreciate your help on this project, as I am stumbling through wothout any real experience and a real world example of how these are constructed given an environment I fully understand would help tremendously. thank you for your help and I look forward to your responses, questions and comments.

post-3595-017139300 1310678023_thumb.gif

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I think I asked for too much, or didnt give enough information, or both...lol

I didnt mean to sound like I was demanding someone help me, but when I re-read it this morning, It sounded like I was an arrogant prick. sorry about that.

I got about 4 and a half hours sleep last night as I stayed up working on this thing and so far havent really made any progress. I think I understand some of it (using the included examples) and trial and error.

maybe if I simplify it more than I could get a more favorable response. I bet you guys hate newbs.........

:rolleyes:

Would one of you be willing to just walk me through a simpler input / output scenario using a thermocouple to activate a valve and a temperature setpoint to shut off the valve?

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Not much happens over the weekend here, and you're right about the tone of your first post!

To answer some of your questions, which are in help, but to sumarise:

Bits are boolean operators, ie on or off, 1 or 0.

Integers are numeric values -32768 to +32767

System Bits and Integers are pre-defined, such as SB3 - I second pulse, SI32 - Current date.

Memory bits and integers are freely definable by the programmer.

Here is a screenshot of the simple scenario you spoke of. In hardware config, link the thermocouple input to MI1. Link MI2 and 3 to setpoints on the HMI.

post-193-010035800 1310952286_thumb.jpg

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Hi v2comp,

The impression I get from your posts is that you would like for someone to write a complete program for you. If you are able to post specific questions in areas you are having difficulty, you will likely get a more useful and prompt reply.

I have written and attached the beginnings of a sequence controller (created in VisiLogic 9.3.0). This may be enough to get you started. Your local Unitronics distributor may be of more assistance with this project.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Don.

Sequence Controller.vlp

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How do you intend to control the position of the proportional gas valve? The v120-22-un2 does not have an analog output.

Best regards,

Don.

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How do you intend to control the position of the proportional gas valve? The v120-22-un2 does not have an analog output.

Best regards,

Don.

first off Don, thanks for responding, second of all, as I said in my second post, I realized I came off demanding and looking at it, it does look like I was wanting the entire thing done for me. that was and is not my intention, I was just having a hard time (especially since I have no background in electronics or plc programming) and just didnt understand the basics. I have been thrashing this thing out (using Help and google and plctalk and anywhere else I can find information) trying to understand the relationships between the the different parts of the system. I know I am in way over my head, but I have made "some" progress, very little, but some.

I really appreciate your efforts and it was just what I needed. as far as the proportional valve, I have two differrent units I can use,

1. an ASCO posillow proportional valve; Flow Rates Adjustable Between 0% and 100% of Rating<li>Control Achieved by Applying Straight Voltage Between 0 and 24 VDC via Potentiometer or Other Variable Power Supply<li>Flow Rate Can Be Regulated by a Range of Electrical Inputs via an ASCO Electronic Control Unit or Similar Circuit<li>Suitable for Use in Air/Gas and Low Vacuum Service and to Control Flow of Water Precisely

Electrical characteristics:Nominal supply voltage: 24 VDC ± 10%,

maximum ripple 10%

Maximum full-load current: 1100 mA

(factory set at 500 mA)

Input control signal (selectable): 0-10 VDC or 0-20 mA

or 4-20 mA

Switch-off current: <2% of max. input control signal

Adjustable off-set: 15-50% of pulse width

modulation voltage

Adjustable full-load: 30-100% of pulse width

modulation voltage

Ramp time: Manually activated via on/off switch;

adjustable 0.1-3 seconds

Adjustable PWM frequency: 40-700 Hz

Power consumption: 0.8 watts

Designed for applications where on/off won't do what you want. Available with 0-10 VDC, 0-20 mA, or 4-20 mA control signal. For pipe sizes from 1/4" to 3/8" NPT, with pressure ranges up to 230 PSI.

2. Koganei KFPV050-2-30-FM-BR-02 Proportional valve

High-precision Proportional Control Valve has been newly developed, which is optimum for the production lines, plants, etc of air, gas, liquid, etc. The stepless control is realized, which is necessary to control the flow rate of gas and liquid. Standard input signal can be selected from 4 to 20mA in current as well as 0 to 10 V in voltage. Controller is equipped with initial setting support circuit, so that the initial setting is performed without any external input.

these are the units I have and would like to use the ASCO more then the Koganei from a cost only standpoint.

I have attached pictures of both with the Koganei having a more detailed wiring / control picture.

I dont know if either will work with the vision unit I have (again, not an electrical engineer) but these are the units I bought with the intention of making this happen.

if they wont work with the v120-22-un2, which unit from Unitronics would be more suitable?

I really appreciate your help, and I will try to refrain from being so impatient..

thanks again,

Derrell

post-3595-024668900 1310996964_thumb.jpg

post-3595-067976400 1310996980_thumb.gif

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How do you intend to control the position of the proportional gas valve? The v120-22-un2 does not have an analog output.

Best regards,

Don.

if I use expansion modules #'s IO-ATC8/A18 and IO-A06X with the 120-22-UN2 controller, will that work to control the proportional valves that I listed in my last reply?

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Not much happens over the weekend here, and you're right about the tone of your first post!

To answer some of your questions, which are in help, but to sumarise:

Bits are boolean operators, ie on or off, 1 or 0.

Integers are numeric values -32768 to +32767

System Bits and Integers are pre-defined, such as SB3 - I second pulse, SI32 - Current date.

Memory bits and integers are freely definable by the programmer.

Here is a screenshot of the simple scenario you spoke of. In hardware config, link the thermocouple input to MI1. Link MI2 and 3 to setpoints on the HMI.

post-193-010035800 1310952286_thumb.jpg

thank you very much, it really has helped me get started.

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I do not know where you are located, but please be careful in this project. Using a PLC to take flame signal information in and make flame safety decision directly into a PLC (no matter what brand of PLC it is) is typically considered something to stay away from. You never know when a piece of higher level elcetronics may fail in an unsafe manner and cause a gas valve to remain open when it should not, or several other failure modes possibles with burners (even small ones like you are working with). I know you are making this for yourself, and that you will have no one to sue but yourself, but this really calls for a small "low cost" flame safety control relay and then you just use the PLC to turn the burner on and off, turn the water valve on and off, modulate the firing rate of the burner through the use of the modulating valve, and all other controlling timers and functions you may want to have.

For those who want to jump on this and say that they know people who use PLCs to make flame safety decisions on burners, remember that there is almost always a Honeywell, Fireye, Siemens, Eclipse, or certified Flame safety PLC for flame safety in the control mix as a last line of defense for liability mitigation. And for those people who would argue still not needing one. I would argue that when something bad happens, you want a certified flame safety product to point the law suit to instead of the PLC programmer and the PLC hardware manufacturer.

I would strongly advise you on the consideration of using a flame safety controller that has been designed, rated, and certified for small burner use. Like the ones found on home hot water heater units made by, White Rogers, Honeywell, Siemens, Etc. Their cost is modest and can be bought for about $150 US (one piece purchase price 24 VAC/DC operating system).

Keith

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if I use expansion modules #'s IO-ATC8/A18 and IO-A06X with the 120-22-UN2 controller, will that work to control the proportional valves that I listed in my last reply?

Yes, the IO-AO6X gives you 6 analog outputs, one of which could be used to control your proportional valve. An I/O expansion adapter (EX-A1, EX-A2X or EX-RC1) is needed to use the listed expansion modules.

Glad we've been of help.

Best regards,

Don.

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I do not know where you are located, but please be careful in this project. Using a PLC to take flame signal information in and make flame safety decision directly into a PLC (no matter what brand of PLC it is) is typically considered something to stay away from. You never know when a piece of higher level elcetronics may fail in an unsafe manner and cause a gas valve to remain open when it should not, or several other failure modes possibles with burners (even small ones like you are working with). I know you are making this for yourself, and that you will have no one to sue but yourself, but this really calls for a small "low cost" flame safety control relay and then you just use the PLC to turn the burner on and off, turn the water valve on and off, modulate the firing rate of the burner through the use of the modulating valve, and all other controlling timers and functions you may want to have.

For those who want to jump on this and say that they know people who use PLCs to make flame safety decisions on burners, remember that there is almost always a Honeywell, Fireye, Siemens, Eclipse, or certified Flame safety PLC for flame safety in the control mix as a last line of defense for liability mitigation. And for those people who would argue still not needing one. I would argue that when something bad happens, you want a certified flame safety product to point the law suit to instead of the PLC programmer and the PLC hardware manufacturer.

I would strongly advise you on the consideration of using a flame safety controller that has been designed, rated, and certified for small burner use. Like the ones found on home hot water heater units made by, White Rogers, Honeywell, Siemens, Etc. Their cost is modest and can be bought for about $150 US (one piece purchase price 24 VAC/DC operating system).

Keith

thanks Keith, I appreciate your suggestion and will do exactly as you said if they are easy enough to find. I am all for doing this safely and would be glad to put these into the system. thanks again. I didnt even know they existed......

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I do not know where you are located, but please be careful in this project. Using a PLC to take flame signal information in and make flame safety decision directly into a PLC (no matter what brand of PLC it is) is typically considered something to stay away from. You never know when a piece of higher level elcetronics may fail in an unsafe manner and cause a gas valve to remain open when it should not, or several other failure modes possibles with burners (even small ones like you are working with). I know you are making this for yourself, and that you will have no one to sue but yourself, but this really calls for a small "low cost" flame safety control relay and then you just use the PLC to turn the burner on and off, turn the water valve on and off, modulate the firing rate of the burner through the use of the modulating valve, and all other controlling timers and functions you may want to have.

For those who want to jump on this and say that they know people who use PLCs to make flame safety decisions on burners, remember that there is almost always a Honeywell, Fireye, Siemens, Eclipse, or certified Flame safety PLC for flame safety in the control mix as a last line of defense for liability mitigation. And for those people who would argue still not needing one. I would argue that when something bad happens, you want a certified flame safety product to point the law suit to instead of the PLC programmer and the PLC hardware manufacturer.

I would strongly advise you on the consideration of using a flame safety controller that has been designed, rated, and certified for small burner use. Like the ones found on home hot water heater units made by, White Rogers, Honeywell, Siemens, Etc. Their cost is modest and can be bought for about $150 US (one piece purchase price 24 VAC/DC operating system).

Keith

I have been looking, and the Honewell units (169.00 ea) seem like a reasonable option, (but I dont know anything about them either). in terms of placement in the system, you saw how I originally have the components laid out, where would you advise putting them? should they just control a seperate gas valve inline before the proportional valve? I understand that they are looking for flame, and if they dont see it, they wont open or fire the spark igniter, my questions about them are some of the specs they show, if I understand the wording they use it looks like if one of them doesnt see the flame that they have prepurge waiting cyucles of 30 seconds and reset settings of 20 seconds, am I gonna have to have some kind of air to clear out the gas or can I just let it function without that. these little burners arent gonna need a ton of makeup air but either way I am instaling a vapor hood and make up air system in the building just to make sure I dont kill myself with carbon monoxide fumes. I would really appreciate any advise you can give. thanks.

EDIT: I found some more units, they are twice the cost, but are new technology and can control multiple burners at once "Automatic Burner Control Unit IFD 258" from Combustion 911. probably overkill, but they look like they will control the flame, ingite the burners after a fault automatically and have all the safety built in. I can still control the proportional gas valve with the PLC and leave the flame control to the device. if you see anything wrong here let me know.

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v120-22-UN2 question about wiring an analog input. I know this is basic wiring stuff for most of you guys, but I need help understanding how to wire and address a type k thermocouple.

on the PLC itself, (I7 I8) and (I9 I10) are dedicated analog input terminals. if I attach each wire from a two wire type k thermocouple to I7 and I8, which one do I use for the input operand address.?

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v120-22-UN2 question about wiring an analog input. I know this is basic wiring stuff for most of you guys, but I need help understanding how to wire and address a type k thermocouple.

on the PLC itself, (I7 I8) and (I9 I10) are dedicated analog input terminals. if I attach each wire from a two wire type k thermocouple to I7 and I8, which one do I use for the input operand address.?

http://www.unitronics.com/Data/Uploads/V120/V120-22-UN2.pdf

Page 2, thermocouple's, Note 1 describes the wiring. Jumper settings are laid out on page 4.

In Visilogic, goto Hardware Configuration, select V120-22 and under snap in select UN2. On the Analog Inputs tab you will have No. 0 & 1. Under type, select T/C type J or K or whichever you are using. Then attach it to a variable MI123, name it something. You can also select a filter to smooth out ripple in the readings.

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Keith is correct in what he has said and it sounds like you have taken this on board. You will need 2 solenoid valves (or a double block valve ie. 2 valves in 1 unit) between the gas supply and the burner. Your control valve will then come after these valves. Also it is advisable that your safety devices are hard wired to your burner controller. In this case a separate low level device in the wort boiler that disconnects the power to your burner controller if the level goes low. Hope this helps.

Justin

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Keith is correct in what he has said and it sounds like you have taken this on board. You will need 2 solenoid valves (or a double block valve ie. 2 valves in 1 unit) between the gas supply and the burner. Your control valve will then come after these valves. Also it is advisable that your safety devices are hard wired to your burner controller. In this case a separate low level device in the wort boiler that disconnects the power to your burner controller if the level goes low. Hope this helps.

Justin

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help, yes, I am all for this thing being as safe as possible and appreciate the guidance, I figured out the wiring and addressing the thermocouples before I read the response post, (stupid oversight on my part) I bought the plc over a year ago and read the pdf's then, and knew I had read about where to wire the thermocouples before and how to address them, I had just forgot where to look.

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For a buner that is only 225,000 BTU per hour you do not need two blocking valve you will only need one (this does not incluse your modulating valve). So what I would recomend is that you buy a small Honeywell control such as the one that I have attached the PDF for. This one shows to be avaialable from Amazon for $108 and uses hot surface ignition and not a spark rod. If you want to use spark instead there are other modelas I am just showing this one as an example.

So to complete the thought you add the flame control and one more solenoid valve (that will move the gas flow you need) in series with the modulating control valve that you will be controlling with your PLC. You decied when to turn the flamer on and off in the PLC so you keep your modulating valve closed when not burner is needed, 100% open when the burner needs to ignite, and fully modulating after say 30 seconds have gone by (ignition process will be complete or will have failed by then).

Enjoy your project it's the kind I call fun :-)

Thanks

Keith

Honeywell hot surface ignition control.pdf

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