1040V(A) HMI Visilogic-EDITING BASICS minor eng unit scaling change to OLD code and recompile and upload with newer Visilogic version

[MeriCummins]

I have complete test rig using Unitronics HW / Visilogic PLC controls with a project created 10 years ago and need to make a calibration / scaling change. There is no access to the original author or otherwise any support.

1) Tried to upload current project from PLC and get the error msg: option "Burn Upload Project" was not selected when the project was downloaded or -due to incomplete data in the PLC. When I open the old project message that it is older code but will be opened anyway with newer vers. (code 155)the creation version for HIM/PLC is 7.0.1 last saved date 20/02/13

I do have a VLP of the original PLC code from the machine mfr.  that was created in 2011 (attached). There are other addl. concerns however, not really well versed enough to know how critical these may or may not be.

Suggestions as to backing up what is actually currently in the PLC to ensure that it is the same as the (supposed) final copy that was provided by the machine mfr.

Current Vision PLC config:

O/S: 3.6 (03)

Boot: 2.2 (07)

BinLib: 0-3.10 (02)

Factory Boot: 1.3 (06)

There is a note at bottom which mentions Known issues: Version Incompatibility-certain versions have changes that may impact on the running of an existing application if you update the OS in the PLC. I merely want to make a very MINOR edit to a singular parameter scaling value then upload the edited version back to the PLC. I am looking to perform WITHOUT making any or updates to OS.

2) Will my recently downloaded version of Visilogic (9.8.95 bld 0) open the old project, allow me to edit, recompile and download it in to the PLC as-is without issue? It appears as though this should be no problem once I register. 

3) Registration says is required to up/down load use remote access etc. Do I need to be connected to the PLC when registering or is the registration strictly to the PC?

4) Since it appears as though the option to "burn" project was not selected when created-what is the reason one would not want to "burn" is burning just flashing a PROM on the PLC with the PLC program to be able to extract etc straight from the PLC via SD or otherwise? I would think that I will WANT to select the option to burn when I upload the revised PLC program.

5) Are there any common pitfalls to avoid bricking the PLC?  I have seen a couple forum messages and that is my biggest fear in trying to remedy a minor issue and losing complete function on this machine and not having any support.

I am using Windows 7  Enterprise 64 bit SP 1 PC 

 

Sorry for the length and detail just want to throw out all the questions swirling around rn in my head-in one post.

Thanks much for any assistance.

Excuse my ignorance if some of these are obvious to the more experienced.

Regards,

Larry

 

Meritor Gen4 Final 06-11-13 delta.vlp

[Flex727]

9 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

2) Will my recently downloaded version of Visilogic (9.8.95 bld 0) open the old project, allow me to edit, recompile and download it in to the PLC as-is without issue? It appears as though this should be no problem once I register. 

Yes, but you will have to update the firmware on the PLC first. It's not difficult.

 

10 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

3) Registration says is required to up/down load use remote access etc. Do I need to be connected to the PLC when registering or is the registration strictly to the PC?

Registration is for the PC.

10 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

4) Since it appears as though the option to "burn" project was not selected when created-what is the reason one would not want to "burn" is burning just flashing a PROM on the PLC with the PLC program to be able to extract etc straight from the PLC via SD or otherwise? I would think that I will WANT to select the option to burn when I upload the revised PLC program.

Burn Upload Project allows anyone to upload the VLP file from the PLC. Most do not do that to protect intellectual property rights.

 

11 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

5) Are there any common pitfalls to avoid bricking the PLC?  I have seen a couple forum messages and that is my biggest fear in trying to remedy a minor issue and losing complete function on this machine and not having any support.

It's almost impossible to brick these PLCs.

That said, here is what I recommend:

Download VisiLogic version 7.0.1 from the Unitronics website, or request it from Unitronics Support. Uninstall your version and install that (alternatively, install Version Swapper and download the Swapper version from the website and use 7.0.1 by swapping to it - that will allow you to use 7.0.1 without uninstalling 9.8.65. Then make your updates and download the update to your PLC.

It's not likely you will have a problem by using 9.8.95 and upgrading the firmware, but there is always a risk of some incompatibility when undertaking that.

[Ausman]

Further to Flex's advice, the vlp you have posted shows created with 7.0.1, saved with 9.4.0, creation 19/8/08 and last save 11/6/13 which is different to what you have said.  Am I getting confused with thinking perhaps you have 2 vlps? 

14 hours ago, MeriCummins said:

When I open the old project message

and

14 hours ago, MeriCummins said:

I do have a VLP of the original PLC code from the machine mfr.  that was created in 2011

Is the "old project" in theory what is in the plc, and the "original" another one that is the mfr supplied?

So..I'll go on the understanding that "old project" is what is theoretically in use.

Further to Flex's comments I'd download 9.4.0 first and install it, after uninstalling 9.8.95 completely.  Do not forget to right click/install as admin.  Then open the (copy of a copy of a copy!!!) "old project" vlp on the PC and see if Visilogic wants to update it.  If it does, then fully uninstall, and reinstall 7.0.1.    Either way, once you have a Visilogic that doesn't want to alter the vlp, open it on your PC and carefully go through the screens on the running PLC, comparing things side by side.  This is one way you can get an idea if things are identical.  You can't see the ladder, but if the screens perfectly match then it's likely the code is the same....not definite, but likely.

With the same thing on the PC, go online to the PLC and try to compare all the operands used in the ladder and operand areas and see if all of them supposedly in use have something going on.  Visilogic shouldn't care (to a point) that perhaps the program doesn't match up, it will simply display the online status of operands.  Again check as much as you can, particularly in your potential scaling area as you may be able to change numbers already loaded, trial things, and if they are set to load original number on reboot, nothing will be changed.  Make careful notes of the initial numbers so that you can put them back in place if they are not set to load particular numbers on boot.

In theory you can extract all the existing operands from the plc before doing anything as a backup.  I don't know/use 1040s so someone else will have to chime in on exactly how to do that.

All of this will hopefully get a good result, but without the definite knowledge that the version you have in your hand is the one in the plc, you're flying a bit blind.

cheers, Aus

[MeriCummins]

Thanks SO much-all!!, that covers all of what I need I think! Yes, I have a copy that was saved which is what I attached, so that supposedly is the same as the one currently loaded in the PLC and running -no issues. WHen I mentioned "old" I was referring to this copy but opened by the 9,8,95 version of visilogic (ie same as copy version just fwd compatibly opened by newer visilogic). Original was referring to the code that is currently on PLC and running-so yes I think you understood correctly Ausman!!

[DanT]

Hi;

   "Yes, I have a copy that was saved which is what I attached, so that supposedly is the same as the one currently loaded "

 

Use   Info Mode to look at the program name  that was last loaded  

         Touch any spot on the screen ( Not used for a programmed Touch action)   for  8-10 seconds

         Info Mode   ( Password   1111 )    Version,   Software  Project Name

 

DanT

[MeriCummins]

Awesome Dan, THX!!😎

Looks like it is the same name and date on the PLC last loaded with a minor spelling difference so I have confidence my copy and the current running/loaded are the same. I will probably download what is currently on the PLC regardless just to be safe.

Thanks to Flex 727, Ausman and Dan for you quick, knowledgeable and excellent assistance!

Cheers all!!

Edited February 9, 2023 by MeriCummins
added comments

[Gabriel Franco]

Project name is not enough to make sure both, the PLC and disk, projects are the same.

Compare project signature value with PLC signatureCheck (view | show signature log menu).

 

Before any download, import PLC operands (from PLC to computer) to have an updated copy of all operand values.

 

 

[Flex727]

3 minutes ago, Gabriel Franco said:

Before any download, import PLC operands (from PLC to computer) to have an updated copy of all operand values.

This is always wise, but FYI for OP - standard download should not disturb operand values.

[Fernando Castro]

22 hours ago, Flex727 said:

This is always wise, but FYI for OP - standard download should not disturb operand values.

Trust me on this one .... you never know, better to be safe than sorry.

seriously there is a non-zero chance that something will be messed up on a new download.

[Gabriel Franco]

It´s a shame that Visilogic hasn´t an option to upload/download/save the program with operand values included.

[Flex727]

2 hours ago, Gabriel Franco said:

It´s a shame that Visilogic hasn´t an option to upload/download/save the program with operand values included.

You can save operand values in VisiLogic, and a Clone file does save the program with operand values included.

[MeriCummins]

So, thanks again to all who suggested (what might be obvious to some more experienced!) best practices to employ.

1) I was able to verify signature log file to ensure my copy of project IS what was last uploaded to PLC so though I don't have the pw to ul/dl from the HMI directly to SD; I was able to at minimum flash the PLC (appeared as though it may have not been-but then it confirmed). 

2) I uploaded the operands from the PLC to a PC for backup of current values

3) Received a copy of 7.01 from Unilogic tech support but it incorporates a database of 25 and my project was originally written with version 7.01 with database 146.

If I understand correctly, I need to have the exact same database to be able to seamlessly edit then re-download w/o having to upgrade the firmware.

I was also advised that I might find version swapper a little sketchy, I have never used it so I am not entirely sure how and what it's primary designated function / primary useage applications are.

Any insight? My hope would be to use it to be able make a minor scalar value edit for a single channel then save project in the 7.01 version format, burn it and download it to the PLC without upgrading the firmware if possible.

Would any changes REQUIRE me to save it to a newer version regardless?

Thanks again!

[Flex727]

5 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

3) Received a copy of 7.01 from Unilogic tech support but it incorporates a database of 25 and my project was originally written with version 7.01 with database 146.

I see the problem now. You say above the project was created with version 7.0.1, but the important point is which version was it last saved with. I just opened it and I see that it was saved with version 9.4.0. That is the version you need. Get that version and all your problems go away.

 

15 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

I was also advised that I might find version swapper a little sketchy, I have never used it so I am not entirely sure how and what it's primary designated function / primary useage applications are.

I use Version Swapper every day. It works perfectly. I have at least a dozen different VisiLogic installations on my PC that I swap between. The function of Version Swapper is to provide the programmer the means to edit projects without having to upgrade the PLC firmware (precisely as you're attempting to do). However, it may be a bit of a pain for a one-time use. Just uninstall whatever version you have, obtain 9.4.0, and install it. Make your changes and download.

 

18 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

Any insight? My hope would be to use it to be able make a minor scalar value edit for a single channel then save project in the 7.01 version format, burn it and download it to the PLC without upgrading the firmware if possible.

Would any changes REQUIRE me to save it to a newer version regardless?

You need 9.4.0 then you will not need to fool with the firmware.

 

[MeriCummins]

Thanks for the details Flex, couple of things..

So, I can request a copy of 9.4 or find it on the website however, according to tech support the associated Db also needs to be same correct?

If I go to the site to download then I don't think I have a choice or is this a non-issue with version 9.4?

Thanks!

 

[Flex727]

The database number is associated with the VisiLogic version number. You don't need anything else except version 9.4.0. You may have to ask for that from Unitronics support.

[Flex727]

By the way, I have the 9.4.0 installation file, but it's 145MB and I don't have any way to get it to you. If you have some online storage I can upload to I can do that, but try support first.

[MeriCummins]

Thanks -that's awesome Flex, I do not have online immediately available currently but Unitronics has been responsive so they shouldbe able to supply, but if I have an issue I will great of you to offer and I will get back to you if needed.

Thanks SO much!!

Best regards,

Larry

[Ausman]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:14 PM, Ausman said:

Further to Flex's comments I'd download 9.4.0 first

..............................  

[Flex727]

Haha! Wow that got by me.

[MeriCummins]

13 hours ago, Ausman said:

..............................  

Ok, what am I missing now 🤣 I un-installed 9.8.5 and was going to dl 9.4.0

What is it that I ought to do "first"?? 

Thanks!

[Flex727]

1) Download 9.4.0.

2) Install 9.4.0 by right-clicking the executable and selecting "Run as administrator".

3) After installation, run VisiLogic "as administrator" (either right-click and selecting "Run as Administrator", as above, or set up the shortcut under the compatibility tab to always run as administrator).

4) Open your original project file in VisiLogic.

5) Make your modifications and save the file under a different name so you don't lose your original file.

6) Install the USB driver for your PC (done in VisiLogic in the Connection menu).

7) Connect mini-USB cable to the PLC.

8 ) Confirm communications in the connection menu.

9) Download program to the PLC.

10) Check your changes work as desired. If so, you can then download & burn, if so desired. You're done.

[MeriCummins]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, Gabriel Franco said:

Project name is not enough to make sure both, the PLC and disk, projects are the same.

Compare project signature value with PLC signatureCheck (view | show signature log menu).

 

Before any download, import PLC operands (from PLC to computer) to have an updated copy of all operand values.

 

 

 

[MeriCummins]

Tried to include the quote above... to upload (PLC to PC) current operands -when I try to perform the function I get an error. The dialog box of upload utility comes up defaulted to a comma as separating character but says that "green" backfilled separator values are "recommended".

When I try to upload them with the default selected comma type (.csv extension) separator character; I get an error that there is a type mismatch and it doesn't allow me. Appears as though the utility is auto. defaulting to try to save in excel format.

I was able to upload operands after selecting the "H" character (green back filled value) as the separating character however, it is defaulting to saving in .xls format. 

The operands may not be affected-but I want to save the current ones before  download the new project regardless.

Secondly, my edited project will have a new value for a variable operand (MI) full scale-is THIS an operand? In which case will downloading the originals (if necessary) overwrite the variable within the project that I just edited?? 

I am presuming the operand file will need to be in .csv format to download if, in fact I need to-is this true?

[Flex727]

8 minutes ago, MeriCummins said:

my edited project will have a new value for a variable operand (MI) full scale-is THIS an operand? In which case will downloading the originals (if necessary) overwrite the variable within the project that I just edited?? 

Yes, an MI is an Operand. The answer to your question depends. Which MI are you editing?

[MeriCummins]

MI (Memory Integer) is the full scale for the RPM Display scaling (MI812) for an AC drive. I just discovered that I can access various operands through the front panel of the 1040A and apparently make a temporary edit. Currently, the drive FS parameter is (other MI's) 1775 in other operands (command). I have verified the exact error which appears due to this discrepancy (% diff between 1775 and 1760). So, can I use the front panel to temporarily edit this Mi value to see if it makes the correction I am seeking? THen if so, make the change to the project and download this edit.