RickL

Hello 2N2907 ! Welcome to the PLC HELP Forum! I look forward to explore with you your new ideas, projects your working on, technical questions, ect! (I just walk in the door and saw your extensive list of questions, let me get a glass of wine going, return a few phone calls, etc and I'll start popping the replies back to you shortly!) While your waiting, I'm curious, You've been a member since 2013 (10 years ago) ...... in all that time you've never posted anything??? : ( I must say I feel quite honored, that something I had posted, inspired you to post your thoughts for the very first time!! Awesome!! ......... what was the motivation for this?

Hi Bruce B ! Here is an HMI starter "shell" that I'm using for my current project. You may also want to graph out your Temperature and Humidity sensors, It's so helpful with just a glance to see the state of your machine ...... especially when troubleshooting. Hope this helps in your design!

Ohkeedoke! Thank-you! I'll check it out! I don't have a current need for a special "customized" on-off or arrow up down button. But the information you provided lets me know its out there should I do. Thanks! I seriously doubt I will ever need a customized "on-off button", or the like The standard generic HMI buttons serve my needs well! I was accustomed to using the awesome button/graphics in the Netbeans IDE. You could rotate and vertical stack the typing, etc. Very well done library. I feel the pictorial button library was a sad offering in this software. (my kids toys have better ICONS on them!) I think they need to find a better graphics designer or not even offer a graphics library then. What PLC would you choose to buy? .... one with the latest state-of the-art artistic design or one that looks like "Micky Mouse" was the chief designer?

Thank-you Flex! "...... buying graphics from another source, or even creating your own. I do that frequently. Nothing forces you to use graphics that Unitronics supplies as a courtesy" - Flex727 Do you have a source to share for where you buy these enhanced graphics ? ...... and what you lead me to, is the format, resolution, etc compatible with the PLC I'm now using? SM70-J-TA22 V. 9.8.96 Thanks!

Hi Bruce B! : ) Welcome to the HELP forum!! I'm very new to Unitronics and Visilogic PLC as well! I do special design and mods on refrigeration projects as well too! (roof-top units, coolers, freezers, etc ..... and currently prototyping an ultra-sound cavitation assisted, beverage fast chiller) but, I'm not a HAVC tech! : ) I also do special projects in electrical, plumbing, auto mechanics, etc. as well but, I'm not an electrician, plumber or mechanic by any normally recognized professional criteria. I simply exploit these and many other technical fields to fulfill my current project desires .... and have lots of fun! : ) I'd be happy to help you with your project thru to its completion. Any code clips I can pass you or app shells to get you up to speed, I will! Question: In your posted HMI of your project here, I feel the buttons and symbol graphics library , needs much improvement! : ( (I'm referring to the on-off, arrow up and down graphics ) I myself would not present to my customer, on a state of the art PLC, such a poor quality graphic representation. I don't know why this is , maybe a memory constraint of this PLC? I would be willing to pay extra for more memory with high end graphics than to present such poor graphics in the end product. ..... your thoughts?

Hello PLC community! I am of the contention that the best way by far to "teach" is by working examples (ie: code clips and/or working app shells). I feel this is the very essence for a quality and enjoining PLC coding "help" community. This is my first time ever coding in PLC "ladder" paradigm. As I have coded in Java and C before , for functional end products, I already knew the "logical" and "coding" schema of the different languages required to interface with computers. My tactical approach to any new project is, for the best part, is on a "need to know" basis only. If I were to have "read" all of the immense Java libraries before I started coding, I would still be reading and not have completed any project. Working "code clips and app shells" are exceedingly powerful, and like no other by far, in getting a "newcomer" up to speed and soon self-sufficient. I propose to the Unitronic adms of this technical/coding "help" forum to establish an organized/indexed collection of documented "Code Clips and Sample App Shells" section. (headless and no general commentary).

Hello PLC community! Our PLC dewatering pump station utilizes "Turbine" flow meters in its discharge pipes. The recommended "straight" pipe run distance before your flow meter is 15 x pipe diameter and 5 x after for stable and accurate flow rate data. This leading "straight" pipe run allows the generated turbulence from lets say a 90 degree elbow, to become more "laminar" in its fluid flow. In our case, the required straight run length would be 45 inches before and 15 inches after! (5 feet total) The problem was that the area I had for the four large dewatering pumps was only 46" MAX!! Pictured below, was my prototype solution to this space confinement. The finished unit consisted of two 3 inch PVC unions surrounding a 4 inch long "1/2 inch tube filled " 3 inch PVC pipe. This allowed me to install the flow meters within only 8 inches of the "turbulent" 90 degree elbows!! The "tubes" act as a "water straightener" quelling the generated vortexes and rotational twisting out of the elbow resulting in a laminar flow. Hope this maybe helpful in your pump application!

"In my childish mind ...... " John_R Agreed! No! ...... that is something a child would conjure up indeed! Basically, The way it works is there is a DC "Micro motor" that bleeds the high pressure hydraulic fluid from the lift cylinder. It a "fail-safe" poppet valve that small steps the car down to the next floor.

"You keep delving into control logic that is outside the realm of typical PLC control" - John_R "Anyway, my point was not that a PLC is not capable of controlling an elevator, or some sort of extrication sub-routine, but merely that such operations need to be well documented and certified. " John_R ................. John, you (in your own words, as shown above) attempt to retract and modify your own statements when caught! You will never sell that "stuff" to me or any one else on here!

"So please bare with my sarcastic responses... " -John_R marked by bitterness and a power or will to cut or sting. sarcastic implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing. No!! .....I will not bare your blatantly vulgar "sarcasm" against me or anyone else in this community help forum.

............. Res ipsa loquitur!

An "incremental" based rotation, I think we both agree, would allow extreme disparities in total long term work loads. An "Hrs Run Time" based rotation, I think we both agree, would allow a means to programmatically equally "load share" all the pumps during the weeks /months of run time. " ........ but again I ask if you are putting too much emphasis on the time each pump runs" _ -John_R NO! ..... as I just stated above, It is the primary parameter (Run Time of each pump) for a "run time" based rotation. You can't put too much emphasis on the Time each pump runs, in a "Run Time" based rotation scheme.

Thank-you Gabriel! With the indexed sort I have , it works perfectly! ..... and without a using a data table! Using "Get Max" only deals with one pump at a time. Sorting "up" ..... arranges all the pumps for me in one shot!

"Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. what I tried to convey is that usually I try to share knowledge and help others to solve problems, to the best of my capabilities at least (I usually care)" We'll thank-you for explaining that Fernando ! I am much the same way! I love to share and work out problems too! I apologized if I mis-took your intent! Lets put all this behind us and start anew! Thank-you for reaching out!

Thank -you Fernando! Well aware of all that already! Thanks! I've been working with a board member on the ICC (lives 15 mins from me!) on my "invisible" ADA platform lift already. They are really receptive and supportive to new or mods to what's out there. My primary desire right now is to prototype a working "proof of concept" machine.

Hi Gabriel! I was in Long Island for factory training on a massive EPABX (Central Office Tecom System) and it had "twin" CPU units for full operational redundancy. You could smoke a complete processor board and the "hot" stand-by CPU kicks in and not even loose a call! But, my thoughts to addressing elevator faults (controller or peripheral) is NOT to continue its operation but to suspend it! .... until maintenance personal evaluates "on-site" the fault condition. Dropping a phone call is one thing ......... dropping grandmom four stories is different! : ( Your thoughts? Thank-you! So, my line of thinking is one PLC main controller with a second PLC to operate in "Cripple Mode" only! ..... just like the CPU in your car does when it looses full control.

"But seriously, are you controlling these 4 pumps via PLC? Can't you simply put a counter/timer on these and when each pump reaches it's allotted run time, you increment to the next?" - John_R Hi John! I'm sorry ! .... but I think I may have left you astray : ( Yes ..... the pumps are under PLC control. Your current understanding of "why" the use of the Hobbs (Hrs) meter is backwards from my intended use. Background: In our three tier (3ft off-sets) commercial basement, residing over a natural spring, presents a highly dynamic and frightening rates of flood waters. This has gotten even worst now that the surrounding Turnpike has installed three "rain water" retention ponds around us. The original "sump" well has long exceeded its workable capacity for a practical pump design solution. so, I simply let the bottom tier (room) flood, that gave me an instant 1,500 gal storage "sump" (aprox. 12" deep). When the level of water rises to the top of this new "storage basin" my lead pump kicks in and runs til basin is empty. Depending on the "ingress rate" of ground water, may run for only 5mins or 3 months!! I dont care, as long as that one pump keeps the water level contained. Should the lead pump see that the water is still rising when it turned on, the PLC will call in upto three "Helper Pumps". Do you see the crazy and un-predictable "run times" the pumps will be experiencing? I am keeping "run time hrs" on the pumps to even out the load share of the pumps over the days and weeks. Thank-you for your insight John!

"You keep delving into control logic that is outside the realm of typical PLC control" - John_R John, They landed a spacecraft on the moon with little more than an Altair 8800 running a few kalman filters, what makes you think a PLC can't control an hydraulic elevator? .... that its "out-of-the-realm" of such control? ........... from "Computer Lib" / "Dream Machines"

Hi John_R! : ) Thank-you for your welcomed input! "And I know this is gonna send me to "forum purgatory", but WTF are you talking about?" I've been involved in the hotel/motel industry for many of years now. It has afforded me a great span of design challenges across many technical fields (HAVC, plumbing, electrical, EPABX phone systems, data networks, commercial washer/dryers, swimming pool filtration/de-humidification, etc ... and so much more!) This project is to address the motel guests being "trapped in the elevator" scenario. This is often a terrible experience for the guests and long waits for fire department rescue (extrication)...... when your "trapped" ....... minutes seem to be hours! The PLC is to be coded to access the nature of the fault, execute its plan to slowly step elevator down to appropriate floor for release. "Self-Extrication" PLC

Hi John! : ) Thank-you for your thoughts! "Following Fernando's lead, not sure what version you are working in, but I can't open it either." - John_R Ver. 9.8.96 I downloaded the same posted file and have no problem opening it up. I don't know why It won't work for you. "Hmmm (and with Joe's permission), it seems perhaps you are really overthinking this, of course I can only speculate what you are trying to accomplish." - John_R I take it Joe's your father or guardian, I don't know why you need to seek permission from Joe to respond to forum questions, are you not capable to stand on your own merits?? ..... Are you old enough to be posting on here? I gonna tell your mom your messing around on the computer here instead of doing your homework! : ( "Are you trying to "equalize" the run time of each pump by tracking total run time compared to each pumps run time???" - John_R The application is to address an extremely dynamic (zero flows to 380gpm) commercial basement dewatering pumping station design. Standard lead/lag "incremental" pump rotation (1,2,3,4 - 2,3,4,1 - 3,4,1,2 - 4,1,2,3 - 1,2,3,4) would allow some pumps to run for months, while the others hardly contribute to the overall work load with such dynamic flow rates. By attaching "Run Time" Hobbs meters to each pump, I can sort out the least to longest worked pumps to effectively distribute equal load share across all the pumps. "And, "Hobbs Run Time" ? , I believe this is an aviation term regarding time logging in Hours & Tenths??" - John_R They use Hobbs meters in aviation for engine run times ....... yes! but our bulldozer has them too! : )

in prima facie I'm in the early stages of laying out the design logic tree and required protocols for a dedicated "self-extrication" elevator PLC unit. This is companion project to my PLC based primary elevator controller. The normally idle, stand alone, self-extrication PLC is will be in "hot-standby" mode with battery back-up operation. I'll need to establish a communication link between these two PLCs. I'll need more than just a "heart beat" failure indication of the main PLC controller, thinking to possibly emulate a "catch/throw" error paradigm with-in the main controller to the cause of the controller/peripheral failure. Here the extrication PLC would weigh the best course of action.

.... "I was curious about, but to be honest I don't really care" - Fernando Castro That comment has the mentality level we often see from six graders. They will express their interest to know something (that you yourself has stated is true), followed by "but to be honest .... I really don't care" (obviously an un-honest contradiction). They deprive themselves of the interest or curious inquiry of the desired subject matter over some other totaly un-related condition. As an adult, you should be able to discern that they are two separate entities and address them accordingly.

Hello! : ) For my 4 pump "lead/lag" rotation, I sort the lowest Hobbs "run time" of each pump (this is my lead pump for that pump down session) followed by the next lowest run time, etc. (ie: pump order: 1,2,3,4 sorts out of vector: 3,1,4,2 ) Pump 3 is now found to be my "lead" pump. This the "sort" vector worked just fine in sorting the total run times of each pump. The problem I had was that there were needed "associated" parameters that needed to follow their associated pumps in this vector "sort" (ie: enabled/dis-abled, Low flow alarm, manual on/off, etc) I didn't see any "indexing" capability of the sort vector so I coded (ladders 50 thru 65) to emulate an "indexable" sort vector. This works perfectly, but seemed like a long way to get there. Did I misunderstand how to "index" sort with this function?

Hi Deyan! : ) This is my first PLC project as well! Have you considered using a retraction cabled digital absolute encoder for your project? I'm using one in my current project, in a similar fashion, but vertical application. I'd be happy to help in your hardware and software development to get your project on-line ....... hopefully you can help me with my project too! Absolute Digital Encoders Fields of application: Positioning of rack operation equipment Positioning grippers and trolleys with cranes Automated guided systems Elevators Lifting platforms

Hi Flex! : ) Your "touch inhibit" code worked great! ....... but I had to add "dual resets" for the buttons to work properly. Below represents the three horizontal buttons on my keypad. My first code attempt worked fine in that when you "press any one button" of the three, any previously pressed button "pops up" as is desired. The problem was a visual one, where if you pressed the "same" button again, all three buttons would be in the "un-pressed state". Didn't hurt anything functionally, but presented a visual uncertainty. Now it works perfectly! ...... any selected button stays visually "pressed". Thank-you for your help! Three pop-up buttons.vlp