"Indexed" Sort?

[RickL]

Hello!   :  )

For my  4 pump "lead/lag" rotation,  I sort the lowest Hobbs "run time" of each pump (this is my lead pump for that pump down session) followed by the next lowest run time, etc.   (ie: pump order: 1,2,3,4    sorts out of vector:  3,1,4,2 )  Pump 3 is now found to be my "lead" pump.

This the "sort" vector worked just fine in sorting the total run times of each pump. 

The problem I had was that there were needed "associated" parameters that needed to follow their associated pumps in this vector "sort" (ie: enabled/dis-abled, Low flow alarm, manual on/off, etc)

I didn't see any "indexing" capability of the sort vector so I coded (ladders 50 thru 65) to emulate an "indexable" sort vector.

This works perfectly, but seemed like a long way to get there.

Did I misunderstand how to "index" sort with this function? 

 

[Fernando Castro]

Hi, I tried to open your project but I have and older version of visilogic Installed.

I was curious about, but to be honest I don't really care. However I will give you some advise I felt like you already burned some bridges here with all the other topics and I doubt that at this point someone will really wants to invest their own time on explaining everything.

There is nothi g wrong with not knowing stuff. All of us learned in some way or another, I get that you have the attitude,  but you should have started making an effort to learn the basics first,  then asking for help on the specifics.

At  this point my first tought was  "He is probably doing something wrong but I don't have the time to understand what he is trying to do, solve it and explain it"., and the fact that there were 0 other comments makes me think that I am not the only one, however I can only speak for myself.

[RickL]

....  "I was curious about, but to be honest I don't really care"  - Fernando Castro

 

That comment has the mentality level we  often see from six graders.  They will express their interest to know  something (that you yourself has stated is true), followed by  "but to be honest  .... I really don't care" (obviously an un-honest contradiction). 

They deprive themselves of the interest or curious inquiry of the desired subject matter over some other totaly un-related condition.

As an adult, you should be able to discern that they are two separate entities and address them accordingly. 

 

 

 

 

 

[John_R]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:44 PM, Fernando Castro said:

I was curious about, but to be honest I don't really care. However I will give you some advise I felt like you already burned some bridges here with all the other topics and I doubt that at this point someone will really wants to invest their own time on explaining everything.

Following Fernando's lead, not sure what version you are working in, but I can't open it either.

Hmmm (and with Joe's permission), it seems perhaps you are really overthinking this, of course I can only speculate what you are trying to accomplish.

Are you trying to "equalize" the run time of each pump by tracking total run time compared to each pumps run time???

And, "Hobbs Run Time" ? , I believe this is an aviation term regarding time logging in Hours & Tenths??

Please, if you want help, you need to be specific about what you are trying to accomplish.

Many of us old codgers here have answers, but you gotta ask in a way that makes sense to us (just sayin').

[RickL]

Hi John!    :  )

Thank-you for your thoughts!

"Following Fernando's lead, not sure what version you are working in, but I can't open it either."  - John_R

Ver. 9.8.96   I downloaded the same posted file and have no problem opening it up. I don't know why It won't work for you.

"Hmmm (and with Joe's permission), it seems perhaps you are really overthinking this, of course I can only speculate what you are trying to accomplish."   - John_R

I take it Joe's your father or guardian,  I don't know why you need to seek permission from Joe to respond to forum questions, are you not capable to stand on your own  merits??  ..... Are you old enough to be posting on here?   I gonna tell your mom your messing around on the computer here instead of doing your homework!      :  (

"Are you trying to "equalize" the run time of each pump by tracking total run time compared to each pumps run time???"  - John_R

The application is to address an extremely dynamic (zero flows to 380gpm) commercial basement dewatering pumping station design.   

Standard lead/lag "incremental" pump rotation (1,2,3,4  - 2,3,4,1 - 3,4,1,2 - 4,1,2,3 - 1,2,3,4) would allow some pumps to run for months, while the others hardly contribute to the overall work load with such  dynamic flow rates.

By attaching "Run Time" Hobbs meters to each pump, I can sort out the least to longest worked pumps to effectively distribute equal load share across all the pumps. 

"And, "Hobbs Run Time" ? , I believe this is an aviation term regarding time logging in Hours & Tenths??" - John_R

They use Hobbs meters in aviation for engine run times ....... yes!     but our bulldozer has them too!   :  )

 

 

[John_R]

4 hours ago, RickL said:

I take it Joe's your father or guardian,  I don't know why you need to seek permission from Joe to respond to forum questions, are you not capable to stand on your own  merits??  ..... Are you old enough to be posting on here?   I gonna tell your mom your messing around on the computer here instead of doing your homework!      :  (

Well, that's kind of a tongue-in-cheek-inside-joke... And my mom just turned 90 last Monday, so please don't tell that I'm on the 'puter again.

But seriously, are you controlling these 4 pumps via PLC?  Can't you simply put a counter/timer on these and when each pump reaches it's allotted run time, you increment to the next?

Or it that what you mean?  You make it sound like you are attaching some external run time device in each pump.

 

5 hours ago, RickL said:

They use Hobbs meters in aviation for engine run times ....... yes!     but our bulldozer has them too!   :  )

Technically, yes...   but we always called the ones on bulldozers, tractors, combines, lawn-mowers and such, just plain  "hour meters"

[RickL]

"But seriously, are you controlling these 4 pumps via PLC?  Can't you simply put a counter/timer on these and when each pump reaches it's allotted run time, you increment to the next?" - John_R

Hi John!

I'm sorry ! .... but I think I may have left you astray  :  (

Yes ..... the pumps are under PLC control.   Your current understanding of "why" the use of the Hobbs (Hrs) meter is backwards from my intended use.

Background:

In our three tier (3ft off-sets) commercial basement, residing over a natural spring, presents a highly dynamic and frightening rates of flood waters. This has gotten even worst now that the surrounding  Turnpike has installed three "rain water" retention ponds around us. The original "sump" well has long exceeded its workable capacity for a practical pump design solution.

so, I simply let the bottom tier (room) flood, that gave me an instant 1,500 gal storage "sump" (aprox. 12" deep).

When the level of water rises to the top of this new "storage basin" my lead pump kicks in and runs til basin is empty.

Depending on the "ingress rate" of ground water, may run for only 5mins or 3 months!!  I dont care, as long as that one pump keeps the water level contained.

Should the lead pump see that the water is still rising when it turned on, the PLC will call in upto three "Helper Pumps".

Do you see the crazy and un-predictable "run times" the pumps will be experiencing? I am keeping "run time hrs" on the pumps to even out the load share of the pumps over the days and weeks.

 

Thank-you for your insight John!

 

 

 

[Fernando Castro]

On 4/2/2023 at 8:38 AM, RickL said:

....  "I was curious about, but to be honest I don't really care"  - Fernando Castro

 

That comment has the mentality level we  often see from six graders.  They will express their interest to know  something (that you yourself has stated is true), followed by  "but to be honest  .... I really don't care" (obviously an un-honest contradiction). 

They deprive themselves of the interest or curious inquiry of the desired subject matter over some other totaly un-related condition.

As an adult, you should be able to discern that they are two separate entities and address them accordingly. 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. what I tried to convey is that usually I try to share knowledge and help others to solve problems, to the best of my capabilities at least (I usually care). However, in this case, I don't care.

I don't care If you succeed or not.

I don't care if you understood how to use a specific function on the PLC.

I don't care if you did something overcomplicated to achieve what you were trying to do, and there was a better way.

I don't care if you knew something that I did not and I miss the oppportunity to learn something new.

There is No contradiction on my words, I am curious about what are you trying to do and what the heck did you programmed. I don't care if you solve your problem or not.

You do you.

8 hours ago, RickL said:

"Hmmm (and with Joe's permission), it seems perhaps you are really overthinking this, of course I can only speculate what you are trying to accomplish."   - John_R

I take it Joe's your father or guardian,  I don't know why you need to seek permission from Joe to respond to forum questions, are you not capable to stand on your own  merits??  ..... Are you old enough to be posting on here?   I gonna tell your mom your messing around on the computer here instead of doing your homework!      :  (

Not my business. but If I had to guess maybe it is because Joe is the most active moderator in the forum? and at least someone (Not me, as I stated before I don't care) is worried that if it gets "off the rails this topic will be forced to be closed before you can get the help that you requested". 

 

 

[RickL]

"Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. what I tried to convey is that usually I try to share knowledge and help others to solve problems, to the best of my capabilities at least (I usually care)"

We'll thank-you for explaining that Fernando !   I am much the same way!   I love to share and work out problems too!

I apologized if I mis-took your intent!

Lets put all this behind us and  start anew!

Thank-you for reaching out!

[Gabriel Franco]

1. Save the runtime value of each pump to a different file in a data table.

2. Load runtime column into a vector.

3. Use "Get Max" to find the maximum value within the vector.

4.  Use "Data table find" with the maximum value from the previous step. It will give you the first row found that points to the desired pump.

[John_R]

10 hours ago, RickL said:

Should the lead pump see that the water is still rising when it turned on, the PLC will call in upto three "Helper Pumps".

Do you see the crazy and un-predictable "run times" the pumps will be experiencing? I am keeping "run time hrs" on the pumps to even out the load share of the pumps over the days and weeks.

Sorry,  I see your intent, but again I ask if you are putting too much emphasis on the time each pump runs...

You should already have some understanding of the mean runtime each pump can tolerate before rebuild/replacement.

And when your helper pumps have to kick in, you should also track how much run time is involved there.

But as I mentioned earlier, you can track the run time of each pump and put a time limit on which pump is the "main pump", and sequence from there.

And contrary to your opinions in previous posts, I have been involved in "industrial control" since the late 80's, but I retired from the work-a-day world a little over two years ago.

I still maintain a presence on this forum mainly to contribute some knowledge to the next generations (who often feel they know it all, but still show up here asking redundant questions).

So please bare with my sarcastic responses...

JohnR

[RickL]

5 hours ago, Gabriel Franco said:

1. Save the runtime value of each pump to a different file in a data table.

2. Load runtime column into a vector.

3. Use "Get Max" to find the maximum value within the vector.

4.  Use "Data table find" with the maximum value from the previous step. It will give you the first row found that points to the desired pump.

Thank-you Gabriel!

With the indexed sort I have , it works perfectly!  .....  and without a using a data table!

Using "Get Max"  only deals with one pump at a time.  Sorting "up" ..... arranges all the pumps for me in one shot!

[RickL]

 

An "incremental" based rotation, I think we both agree, would allow extreme disparities in total long term work loads.

An "Hrs Run Time" based rotation, I think we both agree, would allow a means to programmatically equally "load share" all the pumps during the weeks /months of run time.  

" ........ but again I ask if you are putting too much emphasis on the time each pump runs"  _ -John_R    

NO!  ..... as I just stated above, It is the primary parameter (Run Time of each pump) for a "run time" based rotation.

You can't put too much emphasis on the Time each pump runs, in a "Run Time" based rotation scheme.

[RickL]

 

"So please bare with my sarcastic responses... "  -John_R

marked by bitterness and a power or will to cut or sting. sarcastic implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing.

No!!  .....I will not bare your blatantly vulgar "sarcasm" against me or anyone else in this community help forum.