Ausman
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Posts posted by Ausman
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JFS, I understand all you are saying, but it is a problem for the creators, hence my alerting Saragani. This issue is not one for the many volunteers here to help solve.
cheers, Aus
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@Saragani something for you to further pursue for JFS........ you might recall this thread etc:
cheers, Aus
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Have you done the obvious of checking all connections, power supply ok, earthing correct, commons ok etc? And not just looking at them, disconnecting and measuring where applicable, at both the ATC8 and PLC end. Measure resistances etc b/n relevant terminals before disassembly for later reference.
Some power supplies can indicate they are ok, but fail under load. If all else appears ok after inspection, measure things carefully during use.
But to me it looks like you've got a connection problem, particularly earthing or 0. Remember that you are talking very small voltages etc here, and the slightest upset in resistances can severely affect things. I would initially start on all your common connections between the plc and IO. Don't forget the module connector(s).
cheers, Aus
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Adding to what Flex says, make a copy of the original project using copy/paste so you don't upset the original project....even though opening it in a newer version "automatically creates a backup".
The open the copy in a newer version and the Version update dialogue box will pop up. I think you need to look more closely at this as it is very easy to miss that it gives you your info. Apart from all the Version Info at the top which shows Creation and Last Saved, about the middle of the text is "If you prefer, you can open this project using Visilogic Version xxxxxxx...which generally matches the Last Saved version. Even if you click ok to update the copy, the original creation info is retained and can be accessed by Project/Project Information....but it will be the same as what is displayed in the initial dialogue box.
cheers, Aus
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Apart from the old printed (yes, printed manuals that formed the entire basis of learning in the old days) instruction manuals that come with various plcs I've used, there is a plethora of info on the web. Colin's post touching again on this subject, with good advice, made me do a simple google on: PLC ladder programming basics.
Multiple hits, some much better than others. Most relate to the use of ladder in a particular maker. However, there were also numerous hits to books. Careful screening of reviews would ensure you get something that covers needs.
However, the main amount of learning comes from finding the basics and going from there through hands on experience.
You can't expect to get a great new CAD program and use all of it's functions immediately without having to physically try it's particular ways of doing something, can you? Same thing for a PLC, the often huge amount of things they can do takes time to learn how to correctly use that particular function. They all follow the basic way of doing things, but they also handle the same sort of operations vastly differently in their ladder structure, particularly for more complex operations.
If working with a variety of plcs, it can become a bit of a brain sieze shifting b/n them... 🤔
cheers, Aus
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The buzzer making a noise implies some sort of fault in switching it. More evidence to get another plc.
You should not have installed the USB drivers with Visilogic. That is for higher end Vision models that have a usb port. You need to ensure a few things.
1). You need to uninstall the visilogic driver, reboot and then install your USB converter, using the driver supplied with the converter. The converter HAS to use a Prolific chip, and also be genuine Prolific. If it isn't it may not work properly anyway, this is a known issue as there is an abundance of fakes out there. If it appears to "sort of" work but not completely correct, it might be the converter. Such issues can send you nuts, but the root cause is a fake, or incorrect product. (That's why I'm crazy, I was around when the fakes started appearing.....🤪 )
2). W10 has quirks with proper 232 connection to the plc. If possible, load 9.4.0 onto a PC/laptop etc running W7 and use that. I have recently found what I believe to be the solution to the issue, but it is not proven yet so I haven't put it up on the forum.
3). Bearing in mind Dan's comment above, I have sometimes found that I have to match baud rate in both Visi and Device manager. Many times you will see Visilogic shift itself to the "failsafe" mode of 9600. Watch the lower left of the Visilogic window.
4). Good luck.
cheers, Aus
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I can't play that at present on something with sound. Are you sure it's the plc? It might be something else in the machine that has failed, and caused a fault in the plc.
At present I would be seriously thinking about getting a replacement. Regardless of what eventually happens, it will be good insurance. If the noise IS the plc, some electronics can make noises under certain conditions, but any sort of noise from a plc I consider an issue. Does the noise go away if you unplug all connectors and simply power the plc?
Regarding the likelihood of not being able to get the program out of the unit, does it have a wiring diagram? Normally attached to the insides somewhere, or else provided separately. As I've said before, it should all be essentially fairly simple, and someone (but not me) could likely do you a replacement program fairly rapidly, including recipes. But perhaps it is more complex, and the diagram would be a good start. Even a photo of the connections and the guts of the unit would help.
cheers, Aus
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Flex's advice is imperative.
The conditional sub issue is discussed in depth at point 11 in
https://forum.unitronics.com/topic/6229-ongoing-25-topics-almost-worth-pinning/
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Beeps? All the 130s I've used can't do this, but given it's a branded one perhaps it's been added specially.
Given you've talked about condensation, I'd carefully pull the thing completely apart and check for any obvious corrosion present.
And it's a likely yes to do the reinstall, which on 130s MUST be done via serial port.
cheers, Aus
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Hi all,
I had to revisit an older project and at the time of doing it, it was all a bit of a rush job to get something going. I had done a writeup with basic details on how it worked, but had left out something crucial which I didn't think important at the time.
As part of what the project did, the plc was able to initiate booting of 2 PCs, try the first and if it didn't work then try the second. I had inputs available to check if the boots were ok. (Incidentally, these are simple usb switches set to go on via a little script after reaching the desktop)
All controlled by a count system run from SB15 that started from 0 and subsequently made many things happen using different types of compare. In testing my mods I could not for the life of me figure out how a keypad input was resetting the count to 0. I WANTED this to happen, and it had worked fine in the past, but I also had to add an external physical button doing the same thing. Simple! Add the input to the reset done via the keypad. But there was NO (not NO, but NO.. 🙂 ) reset linked to the keypad. I spent a long while on the "figure it out merry-go-round" and eventually discovered that originally I'd been super clever. I'd figured back then that if the PC initiation sequence occurred and they were already running for some reason, the full reset to 0 process would turn them off and completely stuff things up. So the count reset was being done many stages INSIDE the PC boot checking subs....lots of if thens in action. And all happening in two scans.
I hadn't written a comment at all, nor noted it in the writeup, no doubt thinking at the time it was all plain as day. But at first glance on the revisit, it was definitely a case of "How on earth are you doing this, there's nothing there!" Even looked at development copies I'd done along the way back then, thinking I'd accidentally deleted an element in my mods. Nup.
Forum members have often mentioned the need for full documentation at the time of doing a project, as one day when you come back to it, you'll have completely forgotten how it worked. Also useful for anyone else who might have to take it over. But sometimes very hard to do it all, especially on something quite complex. I'm happy to admit the haste needed ages ago meant some of my recording went astray.
So endeth my lesson for the day.
cheers, Aus 👨🏫
PS and this was a kind reminder from my PC at the time:
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On 6/6/2024 at 8:56 PM, glacier said:
Can a problem with condensation lead to the machine's start button being blocked ?
A problem with condensation in the controller can lead to any number of issues. Imagine dropping your non-waterproof mobile in a bucket of water......
Ice cream makers like shown are inherently simple things. Refrigeration and the motor to churn the mix. I'm guessing that the plc is only used to enable variations for different mixes, hence the "recipe" setting, which depending on how the machine is built may control motor speed, but more likely fixed speed, along with temperature control and length of run. If you don't use recipes, then it is in some ways overkill, and you may be able to do without it. Simpler controls on the system may do all you need. If it does vary speed etc and you DO use recipes. then you need to stick with it. If the plc revives with the battery there is more for you to do. Do keep us informed.
cheers, Aus
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18 hours ago, glacier said:
could see the program "autofrigor.vlp"
I'm assuming this was via Info mode? This doesn't necessarily mean you can get the program out of the PLC. As Joe says, hopefully they did a BURN as well.
Your other pictures show the controller to be part of the main body, thus easily affected by the vat's low temperature, which would account for the moisture present in the controller. And this will have been ongoing, so it is entirely possible that there is a fault somewhere caused by the condensation. If you do get the controller going ok again with a new battery, I would seriously look at mounting it out of the machine body. Make a mounting arm that will also house the "wiring extensions" you would have to do.
And yes....I've worked on ice cream machines and condensation prevention is an issue.....that often isn't addressed for both ease of manufacture, and pricing.
cheers, Aus
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Farphr.....Flex is way more into 700s than me and likely on the right track. especially re coils. To me, your "refresh string" command need to be at the very end, with one MB triggered by others from the individual rungs.
FYI...my use of RA & RO clearly shows different key behaviour than on the physical unit. eg you can't do "holds", Info mod pops up immediately etc. So I assume that the plc handles the commands differently in some aspects. Which in your case may be letting incorrect element sequence operations work, but when using the screen they won't. Just a thought.
Also, have you tried using a Negative Transitions instead? Anything button wise I always use negatives, to allow screen loading to have been completed properly, which takes a few scans. Perhaps in your case this is directly related to my FYI above, in that something is just one scan out of sequence, but RA & RO quirks allow it to work.
cheers, Aus
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agilly, An answer in your other post.
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agilly, perhaps this link is the best for what you need. Read it completely.
If this doesn't help, click on JFS name, and the list of topics they have done will come up. Go through them if needed, but I think the above link is likely your best way to go.
cheers, Aus
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Joe's great advice is further covered in depth 134-146.
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Hi Jalal, further to all of the above, I've attached a pdf which includes much of your need, without involving the use of the help files.
It is essentially the help file, but as a pdf which makes it a fair bit easier to use. In your case, go to page 128 and read onwards! Please also note that because the pdf was made some time back, perhaps some things have changed since it was first issued. When you can, read the rest of the pdf for other useful info to further reduce brain storage capacity....🙂
cheers, Aus
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The project in the PLC must have power up values for your setpoints, which will likely be able to be changed during actual running/use. Any power up/reset your custom settings will be shifted back to what was likely done as "starting points" to at least make the system work.
To change this behaviour you need to edit the project using Visilogic, if you can actually get into the project in the first place. Either alter the power up values to your setpoints, so that power up will keep the same settings that you like, or delete the power up values completely so that on first boot after the work you will initially set your custom setpoints, and they will remain unless the battery dies. If the battery dies, the settings will be lost.
cheers, Aus
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Further to what Kratmel has said, if you are stuck with no other ports for the moment, start from very basics and also do a test screen that will show and let you do all you want, with the plc not connected to the PC.
Also, how are you powering the Max?
A quick look at your ladder and there is not enough shown to confirm this, but it looks like it is capable of doing a repeat send of something different each scan. 232 and internal buffers will not like the speed of this.
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alex, please have a good read of both topics linked in #11 here:
https://forum.unitronics.com/topic/6229-ongoing-25-topics-almost-worth-pinning/
The info within may open your eyes some more!
cheers, Aus
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Omron? Maybe, but I think not. I'm assuming this is meant to be in the Vision forum, so I've moved it.
I only use V130s but I'm guessing it will be similar...... to turn the screen backlight off you use SI9. I default it to 0, and use SB6 into a TE to store 100 into it so that it remains fully on during use, then goes completely off on timeout by a store back to 0. Others will no doubt do a different method....that's part of PLC programmings nature!
cheers, Aus
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I would be increasing your timeout in the ComInit to a few seconds, and also match your D10 to that amount. D10 & D2 are not shown here, but shift timeouts upwards and no retries to see if things work. If that then works, decrease your timeouts appropriately so that things are stable. Many people here do no retries at all, on the grounds that if it doesn't work, check it again in the next few lots of reads.
However, I still wonder at your methods of testing. You may actually be using the 232 system, instead of the 485 pins on 1 & 6. Kratmel's ask is relevant...screenshots?
Also, try changing your network ID to a number higher than 1 that isn't a number elsewhere in your network.
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Could you please put up screenshots of your ComInits, for both 1 & 2. And in doing this, you might find a teensy weeny little thing that is the issue! That's what I find when I'm finally asking about a frustrating question...the typo suddenly stares me in the face, saying "Here I am...I've been waving at you all day!"
I am suspecting that perhaps your timeouts on 1 are shorter than on 2. What do the status bits on using both ports say when trying things?
As well, you say
On 4/29/2024 at 3:20 AM, kvlada said:Modbus comms worked perfectly fine over RS-232
yet you are doing 485 on the plc, which at the speed you have is not a fast process and allowances have to be made accordingly. But also please explain the "232" setup.
cheers, Aus
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I've got a few 130s and none have had a failure.
But perhaps there is another element in play here. Nearly all the time my cards are not doing any actual "work" apart from maintaining, or trying to maintain, the connection. The only use is a daily login to check a few things, and other slightly longer times when there will be a program update etc. Vastly different to an installation that might be running the cards non-stop with large constant chatter between systems. So the question is whether the amount of card usage might heat things up too much? That is something I don't know and can't answer. Logically a device constantly doing "work" must generate more heat than if doing little, but perhaps not.
And a side note on "duct" tape. I've mentioned this before but a repeat. "Duct" tape in Aus refers to a wider tape that is similar material to insulation tape. Invariably this stuff slightly retracts over time and leaves a horrible sticky residue on removal, especially when subjected to any heat elevation. If you are cutting squares of it to put over holes, it will likely not stay in place that well. The better thing to use is what we call "Gaffer" tape which is also known as Race tape and perhaps other names around the globe. It is cloth based and is much better for permanency in situations like this. The other alternatives for covering openings, which I've had to do sometimes after removing a card and not having a replacement "breakout" piece, are:
1). use a small cable tie to hold an external cover in place, with the tie run through dedicated holes or existing slots nearby.
2). tiny silicone dabs which are large enough to hold the cover piece, but small enough to enable ease of removal if needed. Over the years I've actually found that this is the best of the lot, but "needs must" applies at the time!
cheers, Aus
Invert a vector of MBs
in Vision & Samba PLC + HMI Controllers & VisiLogic Software
Posted
Initial thought......Put the bits into a vector via a struct, and then use Toggle bit in Vector repeated in the scan, done as many times as needed to do what you want, then the changed vector sent back out? I've never used Toggle Bit in Vector, so don't know it's exact workings, and nothing direct in help (??!!), but it looks like it would do what's needed. This method looks involved, but is not actually that much ladder work.
cheers, Aus